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Moderated By: Peter Dierks -- (Moderated) -- Started: 1/8/2005 4:00:24 PM Revision History

Note: Subject actually started by Lazarus Long.

Would the US be better off with a national single payer (other) health system? Or should the current system be left alone or even pushed more towards getting the gov’t out?

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A nationalized health care system isn't a cure-all. It's EASY to come up with countries that have such that do worse than those without.

Public health measures can be worth more than all the docs in the country. Clean water supply eliminates many diseases. Air and water pollution cause disease.

Training of docs counts.

Location of country counts. Cold = no (or fewer for less time) mosquitoes = no malaria – a leading killer.

Habits count. US obesity epidemic is arguably an educational problem, not a medical one.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1307825,00.html

US has done more than many countries to curtail smoking. It's still common in Europe and Japan.

Obesity and smoking arguably cause self induced disease. Is it fair to hold others accountable for one’s one sloppiness and ignorance?

Immigration and its source affect a country’s morbidity and mortality rates. Ill-educated low income migrants can pull them down; well educated high income migrants pull them up. How do Canada and Europe compare to the US here?

The legal system is important in determining costs. US system allows large damages for innocent and unknown mistakes by docs and pharmas; othere countries don’t. Pharmas can sell drugs for less because of lower legal risk.

“Free” resources (or those were the real cost has been shifted on to someone else at gunpoint by the gov’t) tend to be overused. This SAME criticism can be made of employer provided health insurance in the US- -it looks free to the employee; in fact, it comes out of pay he would have gotten.

CIA Factbook:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ca.html

Canada Health Act
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/medicare/chaover.htm

Canada: life expectancy at birth: 79.96 years
infant mortality: 5.3 deaths per 1,000 live births
http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/health21.htm

US life expectancy
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lifexpec.htm

life expectancy at birth: 77.2 years
infant mortality: 7.0 per 1,000 live births

International comparisons of infant mortality are compromised by a lack of standardization with regard to birth registration practices.
http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/201/300/cdn_medical_association/cmaj/vol-163/issue-5/0497a.htm

Lots of statistics on infant mortality:
http://www.marchofdimes.com/aboutus/680_1694.asp

U.S. lobbies notwithstanding, Canada’s health care is superior
http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/econrights/canada-health.html

The other side:
The Fraser Institute, a Vancouver, B.C.-based think tank, has done yeoman's work keeping track of Canada's socialized health-care system. It has just come out with its 13th annual waiting-list survey. It shows that the average time a patient waited between referral from a general practitioner to treatment rose from 16.5 weeks in 2001-02 to 17.7 weeks in 2003. Saskatchewan had the longest average waiting time of nearly 30 weeks, while Ontario had the shortest, 14 weeks.
Waiting lists also exist for diagnostic procedures such as computer tomography (CT), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and ultrasound. Depending on what province and the particular diagnostic procedure, the waiting times can range from two to 24 weeks.

As reported in a December 2003 story by Kerri Houston for the Frontiers of Freedom Institute titled "Access Denied: Canada's Healthcare System Turns Patients Into Victims," in some instances, patients die on the waiting list because they become too sick to tolerate a procedure. Houston says that hip-replacement patients often end up non-ambulatory while waiting an average of 20 weeks for the procedure, and that's after having waited 13 weeks just to see the specialist. The wait to get diagnostic scans followed by the wait for the radiologist to read them just might explain why Cleveland, Ohio, has become Canada's hip-replacement center.
Adding to Canada's medical problems is the exodus of doctors. According to a March 2003 story in Canada News (www.canoe.ca), about 10,000 doctors left Canada during the 1990s. Compounding the exodus of doctors is the drop in medical school graduates. According to Houston, Ontario has chosen to turn to nurses to replace its bolting doctors. It's "creating" 369 new positions for nurse practitioners to take up the slack for the doctor shortage.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20040721.shtml

mortality expectations not affected in Canada by income levels
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=10741994

OTOH,
Canadians have higher death risk than Americans after heart attack
http://mediresource.sympatico.ca/health_news_detail.asp?channel_id=148&menu_item_id=&news_id....

In Canada, the most recent childhood cancer survival data, from 1995-96, demonstrate one-year survival rates of over 90%, three-year survival rates of over 80% and an estimated five-year survival rate of 75%
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/meas-haut/mu_j_e.html

U.S. Cancer Survival Rates Improving
……………………………………………
the five-year survival rate for all cancers is 63 percent. And for those cancers detected early through screening programs, the survival rate is 84 percent.
http://www.healthfinder.gov/news/newsstory.asp?docID=516957

Health, Canada, and Drugs:
http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=20639042
http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=20751070

And let us not forget the US DOES in fact have some socialized medicine: Medicare.

Health Spending in Most OECD Countries Rises, with the U.S. far Outstripping all Others
http://www.oecd.org/documentprint/0,2744,en_2649_33729_31938380_1_1_1_1,00.html

Interesting statistics on US death rates and causes of death:
http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/causes.html

Lots of good OECD statistics:
http://www.oecdwash.org/NEWS/LOCAL/oecdwash-augsept2000.pdf
http://216.239.63.104/search?q=cache:Y_E9yZnrU_MJ:www.oecdwash.org/NEWS/LOCAL/oecdwash-augsept2000.pdf+Canada+miles+driven+per+capita+&hl=en

Biotech stocks:
http://www.siliconinvestor.com/subject.aspx?subjectid=26145

Making claims or citing figures? Then provide your sources!

Anecdotes are just that- -anecdotes and NOT evidence.

Wisdom of the ages that directly apples to the subject at hand:

Pros and Cons of Single Payer (Socialized Medicine):

Healthcare Bluebookt/tag]

siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=25409090[tag]Top Ten Myths about American Healthcare

what is the goal of the government option?:
http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=25880147

How many Americans are uninsured:
http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=26030766

Tired of the leftwing propaganda? Here is some rightwing propaganda on the proposals to take over the healthcare system:
http://healthcaretruth.amplify.com/

Go to reply# or date (mm/dd/yy):

Reply	Subject	From	Recs	Date
11768	The End of HSAs Harry Reid wants to kill consumer-driven health care. About	Tim Fowler	-	11/24/2009 02:35:28 PM
11767	A 69% Capital Gains Tax Hike. . . Pelosi's 5.4% income surtax would hit capital	Tim Fowler	-	11/24/2009 02:32:56 PM
11766	This health care bill is all based on lies, just l	longnshort	-	11/24/2009 01:22:38 PM
11765	Supply-Side Ideas, Turned Upside Down By N. GREGORY MANKIW Published: October	Tim Fowler	-	11/24/2009 12:47:31 PM
11764	<i>You apparently don't even have a grasp of the concept of fiscal conservatism	Peter Dierks	-	11/24/2009 12:32:36 PM
11763	what are you talking about, I post on both threads	longnshort	-	11/24/2009 12:11:45 PM
11762	You don't think insurance companies lend money?	Road Walker	-	11/24/2009 11:57:51 AM
11761	Have you guys been reduced to stalking?	Road Walker	-	11/24/2009 11:56:57 AM
11760	<I>Maybe those folks could buy supplemental with t	i-node	-	11/24/2009 11:41:40 AM
11759	This would never have happened with obama's death	longnshort	-	11/24/2009 11:41:05 AM
11758	No its not usury. I'm not sure they had it either but: Luke 19:23 (New Int	Brumar89	-	11/24/2009 11:40:30 AM

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